Wednesday, April 9, 2008

DON'T PUT THAT BROWN PAPER BAG AWAY JUST YET...


Hello all. Yesterday I posted two articles that grabbed my attention and thought would grab yours, but one seemed to truly capture the thoughts and words of my friends, so I’m giving it its own shine.


Below is an excerpt and link to an article from the UK paper “The Independent” and the article is entitled “Men, women & the secrets of skin colour” -

Men, women, & the secrets of skin colour

"For him, the female ideal is fair-complexioned and pure; but for her, it's the wild, dark Heathcliff types who attract


The fair maiden of myth appears to have a basis in scientific reality, according to new research. Scientists looking into attractiveness in men and women suggest that men of all races are subconsciously attracted to fairer-skinned women, while women are more drawn to dark-complexioned men.

The researchers, whose study shows that across different races, lighter-skinned women are seen as the ideal, say the attraction is driven by preferences based on moral assumptions.

Men are subconsciously attracted to fairer skin because of its association with innocence, purity, modesty, virginity, vulnerability and goodness, according to researchers at the University of Toronto. Women are attracted to men with darker complexions because these are associated with sex, virility, mystery, villainy and danger." Continue reading here

79 comments:

Jackie said...

There is so much truth to this. Men do think I'm oversexed and I find myself puzzled sometimes why they can only seem to have sex on the brain when they talk to me. The most common compliment I get is "you're sexy". I hate that!
"Physical lightness and darkness are aesthetic characteristics that... exemplify the link between aesthetic and moral judgments. On average, fair complexions in women are the dominant aesthetic ideal because sexual modesty and conventional femininity are the dominant behavioral ideal for women. However, there also exists an appreciation for a darker complexion in women, though less common, and this less-common aesthetic preference appears to coexist with a view of such women as more overtly sexual... darker women are seen as more promiscuous." <-------and this is sooo not true for a lot of us dark skinned women. I would say I am very comfortable with my sexuality -- but that doesn't mean I'm sleeping around. What gives mayun? Do you all think this attitude is some how linked to slavery?

Milk said...

It's just the "Mandingo" thing projected onto women instead of men, in my opinion. Maybe similar to the "Sapphire" concept from the 70s.

CDAZ said...

I love me some dark skin women. I don't see what the problem is. The darker the better

DAVEEED said...

Of course it can be linked back to slavery. White women were, and still are to some, considered the holy grail. Pure, innocent, and to always be protected, worshipped. Essentially a "prize" for those non-whites that claim her. Anything close to that will receive similar treatment, but not the exact same, because you still a negra, but just a lot lighter than the rest. The dark skinned sistas aka jungle bunnies, are raring to go for a good time. Freaky, wild, maybe even "exotic." Honestly I don't think white people, or rather most will ever get past this ideology. The problem lies when black folks buy into it. Funny enough I think white chicks are the biggest hoes on the planet. I would NEVER covet them the same..

Jackie said...

translation? geez

Antoine said...

Here Here. Well said Dave. Agreed.

Jackie said...

it just pisses me off because I DO know white girls that are very "loose" with the goodies and screwing everything walking but they still get the good dudes hollering and treating them like a prized catch.

Antoine said...

Different mentality.

White women: Do what you have to do "TO" get married.

Black Women: Do what you have to do, "THEN" get married.

April said...

What's crazy about this is I just had this convo with a friend of mine that said that the reason white women will always get the black man b4 a black woman is b/c they put out that much quicker then a black woman. Black women are "programmed" to hold out. If a white woman even goes out w/ a black dude.. He's guaranteed head that night.(making her the prize)..therefore a black woman is in a no win situation.

Milk Man said...

The term "Mandingo" is used to refer to dark, physically fit black men as an object of sexual attraction to white women. It's derived from the book and movie of the same name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandingo_%28film%29

And it relates to some of the issues that David brought up in his email. Below is a link to a description of the "Sapphire" woman - it's definitely got negative connotations:

http://chancellorfiles.com/blog1/2007/01/03/sapphire-character/

April said...

Jackie -

So do I.. Frustrating to watch...

Jackie said...

Antoine-

so are you saying all women's motives are ultimately to get married. I don't agree if so.

I AM GVG® said...

Jackie-

It’s interesting you feel like that, as a dark skinned woman. I can understand the reality of the article as it relates to the dark skin man, because I think we still see that image of the dark skin man as the Mandingo perpetuated in every facet of modern media. Take this Heidi Klum chick talking about how when she first saw Seal, he walked into a hotel lobby with bicycle shorts, and once she saw his large package bulging from his tights, she knew she had to have him. Whereas the light skin man is always portrayed as the catch, the doctor, lawyer, good guy - save a hoe – the one you want to take to momma.

I have actually always felt the exact opposite as it related to black women. I think for our generation (25-35) with the introduction of the light bright as the “Video vixen” in mainstream videos and as the “sexy pot” in movies and television the shift has occurred at least for me where you see light skin woman as the slutty, promiscuous type. That we as men then creates a preconceived notion of what she will be and what she will be willing to do immediately, and then in turn our approach and behavior towards her reflects those said beliefs (i.e. the whopping, hollering, and making it rain). Whereas the dark skin woman is seen as the pure, wholesome, maternal one worthy of long-term affections and marriage down the line once all our royal oats have been sewn.

Now understand this whole theory probably has a lot, if not all to do, with the strong influence of my mother, aunts, and her circle of friends in my early development and introduction to women and what it meant to be a women, mother, wife and how I identify those archetypes. I come from a family of sophisticated, educated, nurturing dark skin black women so it could be the case that I project that image of the darker skinned female as puritan - mother, wife, lover onto all dark skin women who carry themselves with any kind of act right. As opposed to the light skin women who immediately become reflections, whether fact or fiction, of those early images that were places in front of me on the big and small screen - modern day reincarnations of Vanity in Action Jackson needing to lift their skirts and throw their legs in the air in recognition for any of my attention kind or otherwise. Also, remember I grew up seeing Claire Huxtable on TV every week representing the gold standard of motherly and wifely perfection. I think all of this has carried over to make you {Dark skin women} stand as the ideal for future and light skin as the immediate conquest.

BTW, the name Vanity as it relates to her influence on the development of a whole generation of black men’s ideas and ideal of beauty and sexuality I think is one of the deepest things of our lives that truly needs to be studied. I’ve been working on that blog for a long long time.

Carmen said...

yup. sure do. I got really dark in Miami this weekend and now more people (black men) are loving the summer "shade"

Carmen said...

yup. sure do. I got really dark in Miami this weekend and now more people (black men) are loving the summer "shade"

DAVEEED said...

Jackie -

That's them fool azz negroes thinking that Becky gonna make them look good. Not saying that some black chicks don't get it in too, cause we all know a few, but white girls go that EXTRA mile. Give em a few Patron shots and watch Carnival start early, lol..

DAVEEED said...

April -

Ahhh a lot of black women aren't programmed to hold out, lol. Fellas do
u agree?

Rush said...

My first 10 pieces of cutty was from beckys. I grew up in a white suburbs of jersey and sistahs were not putting out. At least not in HS. Yall waited to college to wild out.
But Beckys in HS. Were giving it away. Especially to black artsy skateboarders that played football and basketball.
Good times.

I still can only see me marrying a sister.

Jackie said...

but this isn't just about black men and white women. It's also about black men and light skinned black women. It's about how men/maybe society in general treat dark skinned women. Black guys (not all) regardless of their attraction to dark skinned women, do seem to hold lighter skinned women in a certain regard. Look at the music videos, look at the women that hook up with celebrity men...

April said...

Rush -

EXACTLY!!!.. That's how it was in my school growing up also..

DAVEEED said...

Ahhh u guys went to the suburban schools. Chicks in BK was putting out in junior high, lol. Dem city gyals learn a bit quicker...

Carmen said...

Jackie -

Like BET! Remember back a few years ago (and still now till some extent) BET hosts were all light skinned long hair Howard drop-outs

CDAZ said...

DAVEEED-

HA. They're programmed to hold "something" What that is I couldn't say. But in this day in age no one is holding out on anything. Seems like the older you get the more women just wanna cut to the chase and get it on. That's just my take on the situation

Jackie said...

but what about light skinned black girls. not saying I want to get married or that all relationships lead to it but every time I look at the weddings in Jet/NYT/Post etc the black couples (the bride to be) is 9 times out of 10 light skin. like some black dudes will date a dark skinned chick forever then turn around and marry a light skin one.

Jackie said...

Carmen -

Prime example and so true. Howard itself was/is a huge perpetrator in the light/dark skin thing

Rush said...

Light/black its all the same to me....

CDAZ said...

Carmen -

I do remember this. I also remember when Bilal dropped the video "soul sista" and there was a huge debate on "what is beauty?" I'm not a big fan of light shade sistas. It's nothing personal. My brother on the other hand has always dated light shade sisters since I can remember. I remember when I was younger it upset for some reason and still to this day I can't figure out why. Oh well

Carmen said...

MIlk Man -

That post about Sapphire is straight BS... another label they just want to give to black women who speak their minds.

Whoever wrote that needs to get back on their meds and stay off the Internet.

Jackie said...

the article said it's somewhat subliminal. like what you may know your self to be attracted to may be different from your actual attitudes/actions

Jackie said...

I say surf the rainbow!!.. Who cares who you love just as long as you do it long and hard!! ;0)

Carmen said...

HAHAHAHAH!!!! I like the dark part of the rainbow ;-)

Jackie said...

I still want to get to the bottom of this attitude people have about dark skin women being promiscuous and not as good or "pure" as black women.

Rush said...

Ive dated, light/dark and its all the same.
Though we use to joke and called boushie ppl lightskinneded. lol Thats would always piss a lighty off.

Jackie said...

I couldn't even read the rest of that poorly worded, grammatically incorrect, factually inaccurate crap. you're right Carm -- they shouldn't let just any ole body post on the web. he needs to be banned.

Milk Man said...

Carmen/Jackie -

You all missed the point - I'm not defending the content of the post, I'm just telling you about how some people think about a particular stereotype of black women. And there are a lot of people (especially older, white Archie Bunker types) who think that way.

Antoine said...

Different mentality.

White women: Do what you have to do "TO" get married.

Black Women: Do what you have to do, "THEN" get married.

Jackie said...

Milk Man -

Archie bunker meaning illiterate rednecks...

Antoine said...

Jackie -

Not saying that this is the motive. You said that you wondered why they were getting "busy" but still treated as prized catches and April chimed in and said it was frustrating to watch. Here is one version of the answer. A lot of the white women that i spoke with and know from college's objective was to get married. And they were BOUT there's. A lot of black women that i know and knew from that same time were on the career war-path. No time for husband and kids. They had to get the MBA / JD/ MD.

The same white women that were getting down dirty are now married with several kids (some with the JD / MD / MBA) some without but still married. What made them a prized catch? What they were willing to do to seal the deal. Do you think it is any coincidence that married men complain that their wives changed after they got married?

Antoine said...

April will probably marry a Filipino / Hawaiian / or European. I can see it now. Just invite me to the hut or chateau for the bashment....

Rush said...

http://chancellorfiles.com/blog1/2007/01/03/sapphire-character/

I left my 2 cent

April said...

Antoine -

Here you go... I will marry whomever God sees fit to send my way..

Antoine said...

Look up Venus Hottentot. I did a study on it when i was in school.
They truly think that because of the larger posterior (ASS), external genitalia (labia), and curves and hips of african women that they were made for sexual savagery.

I mean, I have never slept with any white women, so I have little reference. But with my sistas, I am good. We move furniture.

Antoine said...

Look up Venus Hottentot. I did a study on it when i was in school.
They truly think that because of the larger posterior (ASS), external genitalia (labia), and curves and hips of african women that they were made for sexual savagery.

I mean, I have never slept with any white women, so I have little reference. But with my sistas, I am good. We move furniture.

Milk Man said...

April -

What if God sees fit to leave the choice up to you?

Milk Man said...

April -

What if God sees fit to leave the choice up to you?

DAVEEED said...

he does. God gives us all choice. You marry who want and have chosen. Love is a conscious decision

Jackie said...

Antoine -

I read all about Venus Hottentot. She was viewed as promiscuous because of her azz/genitalia not her black skin.

April said...

Milk Man -

The choice is always up to God.. No one else.. I can't go grasping at every dude willy nilly!!!

DAVEEED said...

yes it is. you decide who you go out with, like, allow into your life, etc. those are choices, which is why you allow some and not others. it's not an exact science like a mathematical equation, but it is still a choice.

DAVEEED said...

April -

I disagree. The choice is up to you. God gave Man the gift of choice, reason etc. He will guide you through your decision and always offer love, support etc. But you make that decision, not him. That's like me shooting someone and said God made me do it. It was his choice. Ahhh no, you made that decision. And you must pay one way or another for it.

April said...

DAVEEED -

The only thing I don't agree with is if your seeing someone that "you" want to see (physically, monetarily) and they do not mesh well with you as a person. If you see someone then I think they should mesh well with your mind, body and spirit.

DAVEEED said...

April -

Agreed. And if you keep seeing that person, clearly knowing they don't mesh well with you, then you're fooling yourself. Move on. Why waste time and energy? There is potentially someone out there you could be
getting to know on a deeper level, if that's your goal.

April said...

DAVEEED -

Right... That's what I'm talking about.. Seeing someone you know you aren't meant for in itself to me means that your going against the natural flow of things (God's intentions 4u).. And your just holding yourself back from someone else that's out there that could be waiting for you to happen into their lives or being sent just for you.

Jackie said...

April - "monetarily" huh?

And back to you Dave -- I still don't agree. I do believe God guides you and your decisions whether you know it or not.

DAVEEEED said...

GVG -

Good point G. Slightly off the cuff, but not completely, but has anyone noticed a difference in how "natural" sistas and those with weaves/perms are treated by black men? Someone ( G you've already heard this story, lol ) noticed the extreme difference in how black men treated her once she grew her hair out into a big natural puff from a perm. She was respected a bit more, the cat calls weren't as persistant, she'd get the frequent "hello my sista" or head nod, etc. Seems as though when she was permed out the reaction she recieved from men were very different. As if the natural sister is more "down", obviously not bougie( def myth ), easier to talk/relate to, closer to her history or love of her people etc. After I heard this story if made me sit back and think. Does that happen sometimes? Surely it isn't absolute, but very interesting. And as I sat back and observed I did see that a bit. Some brothas even feel like they have to step to a natural differently, as if her ideology is more afrocentric in nature. Sometimes the sista just simply wanted a hair change......Thoughts?

DAVEEED said...

April -

Ahhh, but u just said it. Guides "your" decisions. Yes he surely does,
but you make em, not him.

Jackie said...

DAVEEED -

I'm a natural and yes that's partly the case. some dudes do say things to me like I'm straight from the motherland....but I think I get it equally the respect and the disdain. I'm dark and natural...haha lol aint that the name of a perm?

April said...

DAVEEED -

That's the point.. If he guides you towards someone and you buck against natural instinct.. Your going against the grain to do what you want to do, which will ultimaetly lead to your relationships demise with the wrong person.

Jackie said...

DAVEEED -

Your simply threading hairs. Semantics is what you revert to when your point isn't made. Lol. When I say "your" decision I mean that it's yours in the sense it's going to effect your life. I wasn't saying 'yours" in the possessive sense. lol

CDAZ said...

DAVEEED -

LOL. I remember this in college. We have one female from Albany who was very afro centric and had her lil head wrap, afro jewelry game going. She got much respect and love from dudes on campus but her mind was also on that same level so it was all good. I remember towards the end of the second semester mad chicks jumped on the bus and tried to fake it. Rocking the same types of clothing and head wraps, but once they started talking it was a over. They were exposed in seconds and dudes went back to treating them like the birds they were. This was a great topic of discussion I had in my Africana studies class with my professor Mr. Westbrook.

Carmen said...

That is interesting... If I ever decide to go natural, I'm not going to buy the outfit to go with it!!!!

Jackie said...

speaking for myself, I didn't go natural for any sort of Afrocentric reasons. I did it simply for practical reasons. I like it clean and easy to manage. I am kinda militant...haha lol but I'm not into headwraps beads incense etc. matter of fact those people tend to get on my nerves them and the poets.. lol

CDAZ said...

But that's the thing. These chicks went hard. Jewelry, outfits, different shades of make up, frontin in the lunch room with a book like they were really reading it (trying to look educated). Doing all this just to get the respect of dudes who weren't respecting them in the first place. At the end of the day the core was hollow. There was no substance to them. Couldn't really carry on a conversation or form a original idea/ opinion on a issue. It went right back to "So what you doing? Wanna come back my dorm? Cool, I'll sign you in". Then kicking her ass out in the morning before everyone woke up to get in your business. Now she walking across campus with a limp in flip flops slippers, clothes all wrinkled cause you didn't even bother to fully undress her, and the head wrap is now a scarf on her neck to hide the hickies.

Good times, good times

DAVEEED said...

CDAZ -

Derek Westbrook??? Dude you went to Cobleskill. He did classes there too??? D was a cool azz dude. All the chicks loved him, lol.

Antoine said...

It's "Dark and Lovely", my queen. LOL.

That is a very interesting point. That 1997 flow. Erykah Badu, Lauren Hill, Eric Benet, Love Jones soundtrack, mad capri's and sandals. Jazzeefatnastees and NeoSOul! Gotta love Clinton Hill and Fort Greene. Aint nothing like hearing "earthy" necklaces and bracelets, and shells in dreadlocks, clink around while laying the smack down!

I have actually noticed that the "bohemian" sistas get a bit more respect from sideline brothas. Different approach. Skin color, hair, all are part of the visual experience for men. If you got on Gold 4 inch heels and colored hair, you might get the elbow grab, the "pssst", or the hey "Shawty Red"!

I pull hair so it is all good for me. Long or short. I am an equal opportunity dirty young man, so my game remains just as flat, but appearance does count for a lot. I never understood how disrespecting a chick (dark or light) could get you any further than a rolling of he eyes, sucking of the teeth, or the cold shoulder. But to each his own.

The dark / light controversy started way back in the "Willie Lynch" days. We just have to rise above it.

CDAZ said...

DAVEEED -

Yeah man. He is a very wise man for his young age. The funny part is he knew that the chicks were trying to get at him but he wasn't even thinking about giving them the time of day. I learned many things in that class. Not just about history but about life, living as a person of color and what's expected of me. I have the greatest respect for that dude. He changed my way of thinking. Did you ever read that issue of Essence he was in where he talking about still being a virgin?

DAVEEED said...

Jackie -

Thats just it. You wanted a change. But some dudes "think" you're sooo much more in tune with your "blackness" because of it. Going against the white man's conk( perm, LOL ). Shyt it funny cause some of dem naturals don't know shyt about the history of their hairstyles.

Whats even funnier is how the blacks can separate themselves. I went to this BBQ last year with Gardy in Fort Greene and it was a natural haven( Daz you would have LOVED it). I remember telling him that he had the lock on natural sista clicks. Outside of the African Arts Festival or Dance Africa( BK events ) I had never seen so many in a loooong minute. Wasn't mad tho. Fine as shyt. Beautiful black women, perm or not will always get noticed. But most of these folks were "industry" peeps. Never "dressed " up for work, yet made big money too. Tee, and sneaks etc. Bloggers, writers, editors, music heads, BET this, MTV that, etc.

Then you go to a JI Group, MIH party or half of these afterwork joints up here and you see nuthin but weaves and perms. Most of dem chicks work for JP, Citi, Credit-Suisse etc. And the two groups kinda look at each other funny. Like, "huh." Some real school daze shyt. Blacks folks are hilarious man. I'm glad I'm bald. I gets love from everyone, hahahahahah.

DAVEEED said...

CDAZ -

Yeah. Met Derek when I was 18, first summer on campus. Good dude. He could have slayed half the campus with his Nubian sista talk, but didn't. Gotta hit that cat up on myspace when I get a chance.

Jackie said...

DAVEEED -

i've always felt my hair does not and will not define me one bit so what's the big deal if I shave it off. so many women reply on their hair as some sort of security blanket and I can't blame them. I have heard dudes say flat out -- " I like long hair" or I don't like short hair". I shaved my hair out rebellion from dudes/society who think just like that.

Carmen said...

Yall ain't never satisfied. Why all the "natural headed" sistas get more love? Do people honestly think they are less-drama free than say, someone like me who perms? No. Ask Erykah Badu, she drove Andre nuts. You ain't never heard anything negative about Angela Bassett. Don't judge a book by its cover. Some naturals/bohemian queens may know more about some things but they don't know a damn thing about a flatiron trust!!!

CDAZ said...

DAVEEED -

He uses his powers for good and not for evil. One of the many lessons I was attempting to learn. But I see no one wanted to address the fact that he is almost 40 years old and still a virgin. I still can't wrap my brain around that

DAVEEED said...

Who said anything about satisfaction? Some don't like the naturals either. It is what it is. Hell black women are all beautiful to me.
Now stop fronting. You know you wanna stop using that congolene!!

April said...

Carmen.. Thank God for ladies like you....lol.. That whole lil' tid bit made me smile. ;0)

Jackie said...

"Some naturals/bohemian queens may know more about some things" says who? Lol hahaha chile you must have never went to Bar Nun Monday nights...some of the dingiest chicks I've ever encountered.

Milk Man said...

LMAO... true dat on the Bar Nun chicks. Dreads don't grow more brains inward.

April said...

Jackie.. I've seen that mainly down here in DC/Md.. It's racism within our race... I have'nt seen that too much in NY. They recently had this convo on the Russ Parr show where school teachers were witnessing this with a lot of their kids. The parents would complain about their kids playing out in the sun to long. Light-skin parents complaing that they don't want their kids playing w/ darker skin children. .. It's just a mess. I see the difference..
And it's not a pretty situation.

Jackie said...

Your right. DC/MD/VA got so many country people from the south -- where a lot of this mess comes from that's why its more prominent here than in NY.

Milk Man said...

Not just that, but DC was one of the first places in the country that black people began to build wealth. There are not very many other places you can go where there are so many black families who have been wealthy for 4 or 5 generations. So as a consequence, I think DC has some of the longest roots in terms of black people separating themselves by color. The book "Our Kind of People" talks about the long deep roots in DC, and how there are 4 or more distinct social classes here in the black community, whereas most cities have 2 or possibly 3 at most.

Peter said...

It’s crazy that this stuff is still even prevalent. Being a dark brother and all I remember when we were not in style… Then it became popular to be a dark brother…. And now it don’t seem to matter much what color you are as long as you got green. I just chalked it up as a young thing. My mantra.. quality quantity and variety… color (shade) don’t matter.


Thanks,

ShareThis